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Law and Order in Post-war
Iraq Looting by Sophia Barkat It's interesting how people in many parts of the world equate regime change with looting. What goes through people's minds to turn everyone into thieves? Do people, who generally would be embarrassed to be called a thief, just lose all their sense of dignity when it comes to looting if everyone is doing it? by Trevor Batten Re: Looting - Sophia's post "Sophia Barkat" <quietpoly@yahoo.com> wrote: "It's interesting how people in many parts of the world equate regime change with looting." Well, it is the traditional reward for capturing a city. So I suppose its a sign of democracy when normal people start looting. But, as every parent of young kids knows, once humans get really excited -then all hell brakes loose and they often don't know when to stop. This is why vigilantism is so dangerous. It's a bit difficult telling the people that they shouldn't take the law into their own hands when this is the declared strategy of the occupying power. Sophia wrote: "What goes through people's minds to turn everyone into thieves? Do people, who generally would be embarrassed to be called a thief, just lose all their sense of dignity when it comes to looting if everyone is doing it?" Apparently, in Holland, looting was a way the poor took revenge on corrupt officials. However, when done properly, nothing was stolen -just taken out of the victims house and then burnt as punishment. According to Rumsfeld, all is going to plan -and the American troops are being welcomed. Perhaps he could be the next minister of information in Iraq! Apr 14, 2003 by Trevor Batten UN says Law & Order top priority in Iraq Paddy Ashdown (UN High-Commissioner for Bosnia) talking on the BBC World Service Radio has just identified the rule of law as the principle requirement for nation building. He admitted that awful mistakes had been made in Bosnia because those concerned had not realized this early enough. Ashdown remarked, that establishing law and order was not simply a question of installing policemen -but it also involved establishing a legal code and the establishment of a judiciary to implement the law. He also remarked that rebuilding Bosnia will probably take ten years and now, after six years, Bosnia still hasn't recovered from the consequences of not establishing law and order earlier. Once criminal elements take over -and get integrated into society, they are extremely difficult to remove. Certainly, if they get integrated into the political and legal system. However, it seems that the UK and US have not only brought chaos to the streets of Iraq -they have also seriously undermined the rule of law in the world in general. One wonders how any system of national or international law and order is possible -now that US vigilantism rules the planet. How on earth can anybody believe the invasion of Iraq has been a success -unless, one is a criminal who will profit from the current destruction of the rule of law? Looting as cover up by Trevor Batten Call me cynical -but I can't help wondering if the occupying forces in Iraq are not turning a blind eye to the looting -because the resulting damage (especially to hospitals) will make it difficult to retrospectively determine how many casualties were caused by the invasion and how many through looting. It's all very well claiming that such looting is normal -but so is bleeding to death if hit by shrapnel -however, in neither case is this a good reason for not intervening. Clearly, Rumsfeld's blitzkrieg tactic may win the war -but is not capable of winning the peace. by Sophia Barkat re: Trevor's post - Looting as cover up The Bush Administration is already under fire for civilian deaths due to the War. I think the Coalition forces cannot engage against the Iraqi public directly for this reason. I don't think they anticipated looting either. In any case, if they engage in combat with the Iraqi public is any fashion it will lead to widespread unrest. At the same time, it begs the question that if the Coalition forces will not engage unless shot at, what are they going to do when real civil unrest starts during the election process? The Kurds will be asking for independence soon and their own Oil Wells. The US doesn't want that. They want more oil control and less political divide. This won't work with the Kurds. The Coalition forces are bound to engage sooner or later with Kurds in combat. Of course, this will lead to higher casualties on both sides and more global unrest. The US, I think, should never had brought itself to the test like this. It makes everyone else - Russians, Chinese, Indians, Arabs step up what it was they were trying to achieve politically and faster. Everyone will be testing nuclear weapons, and like North Korea, giving public speeches about how they have no worry using it on enemy territory. Does all this worsening just give the defense lobby to get a bigger part of your taxpayer money? Sure. Apr 11, 2003 8:51 p.m. Vases and Statues by Trevor Batten What a great sense of humour that guy Rumsfeld has! Apparently, we see one guy coming out of a building carrying a vase twenty times on TV and we think there is looting -however, we should know that there aren't even that many vases in the whole of Iraq! So how many goddam statues do they have over there? Shucks, I was almost fooled into thinking that those Iraqis were glad to be liberated -thank goodness that nice Mr. Rumsfeld wised me up. So, don't get too wound up about all those pictures showing US troops shooting and bombing their way through Iraq -there aren't that many bullets in the whole US (well, not any more)! En -hey, Mr. Rumsfeld, how many twin-towers have you guys got over there? ...and what about all those pictures of Saddam? -and all those dollars you've spending? Come to think about -what about all these funny Rumsfelds we keep seeing? -and the weapons of Mass destruction? -whattt a joker! Apr 12, 2003 Looting and humanitarian aid in Iraq by Craig Johnson Some good jabs there gang. However the war isn't really over yet. And since the Iraqi army was seizing red crescent aid convoys in the north coming in from Turkey as little as 10 days ago. Downtown Baghdad fell what two days ago. It's coming, but ground pounders are not there to guard personal property. It really doesn't surprise me this looting if you consider Iraqi's GW1 behavior. Give it a week or two and things will be settling down. The sanctions are going away and Saddam's yacht is on e-bay! April 13, 2003 Re: Looting and humanitarian aid in Iraq - Craig Johnson's post by Trevor Batten "captmingus2000" <captmingus@ev1.net> wrote: "Some good jabs there gang.." Normally, I'd be glad that you had been amused -but under the present circumstances, I'm wondering what on earth can bring you back to reality. Craig wrote: "However the war isn't really over yet. You mean that even worse is to come? Craig wrote: "And since the Iraqi army was seizing red crescent aid convoys in the north coming in from Turkey as little as 10 days ago. Downtown Baghdad fell what two days ago. It's coming, but ground pounders are not there to guard personal property." No? I thought they were there to destroy an evil regime in order to preserve human life and dignity (and to set up a free market based on private ownership of property and profit). Craig wrote: "It really doesn't surprise me this looting if you consider Iraqi's GW1 behavior." All the more reason for America to have taken more care to prevent it happening. Before the war -all objections were pushed aside by the faith the invaders had in themselves. Now that the predictions of chaos seem to be coming true -we are told that all is proceeding to plannn. If this is so -then one can only fear for the naivete, or evil cynicism, of the plan! Craig wrote: "Give it a week or two and things will be settling down. The sanctions are going away and Saddam's yacht is on e-bay!" Such wonderful, youthful, optimism! Much American propaganda focuses on the (apparently) successful social, economic and political social engineering of Japan and Germany after WWII. Perhaps this is (partially) justified (if one forgets German and Japanese opposition to the current war). However, the American army which occupied Europe and Japan (for some considerable time after the war) was equipped to maintain military control until social rebuilding could be handed over to civilians (after careful screening -in most cases -although of course some former scientists were recruited for employment by the victors (on both sides of the subsequent iron curtain)). Wherever the Germans surrendered, everything from physical bridge building to legal prosecution of criminals was initially under military control (and specialists were available to carry out these tasks). In principle, armies need to be completely self supporting and capable of almost all the tasks normally found in civilian society) -if they can build airstrips and hospitals, replenish supplies and maintain military discipline for their own purposes -then they can also perform these tasks forrr the benefit of the civilian population who are under their care. After the war (in Western Europe) the "Marshall Plan" help to finance the rebuilding of the European infrastructure (in ways which Britain, with its partially damaged -but not completely destroyed infra-structure, has continually had difficulties in competing against since the end of the war). The current army of occupation in Iraq is a "light" version -which, as you state, is not capable of carrying out the tasks it is morally and legally responsible for. Perhaps, in America, popular propaganda maintains that post-communist Europe proves the superiority of the American system. However, a closer view shows something different. The resulting political, social, economic chaos is still being felt today -from the chaos of post-assassination Serbia to the ethnic tensions of Romania. The economic rape of Eastern Europe by the capitalist/consumerist system caused great hardship and disillusion under many people. The rise of organized crime (including the smuggling of women for prostitution) has been difficult to prevent -especially as many previous regime members have been set to work in support of American commercial anarchy! It seems that history is now repeating itself in Iraq -as locals get re-instated, without the time to do sufficient checks on their background. How can an ill-equipped invading force know which stories to believe and which to ignore? Perhaps, over time, you will become more aware of the way so many simplistically optimistic American policies have gone sour -and created many the current problems (both inside and outside the middle east). Luckily, for most politicians, those responsible are now happily enjoying their pensions -unfortunately, those that have suffered from these policies have not been so lucky. Dead men tell no tales! At least we can agree that the looting of Iraq was inevitable -I suspect it was also the intention. As a "patriot" -you may find such looting acceptable -but, as an outsider, I cannot. FOX Journalism Crew nabbed in theft of Iraqi paintings by Sophia Barkat Ever wonder what FOX journalists embedded with Coalition do with all their free time? Here's the link: http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=world&cat=media_watch US Troops investigated for looting by Sophia Barkat As always the small thief gets labeled, while big thief walks. Here's the link: http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=us&cat=us_armed_forces A few legal points that surely need urgent clarification by Trevor Batten What exactly is the legal status of former Iraqi government officials now in the hands of the occupying forces? Presumably, they are not military prisoners of war and not (illegal?) "illegal combatants". So where are they now being held -and how are they being treated? If they are to be tried for civil rights abuses -or crimes against humanity -then where (and under which law) are they to be tried? The US is opposed to the ICC (and other international tribunals?) and presumably, as Iraqi citizens, living in Iraq, Iraqi officials were not subject to American law before the (illegal?) invasion. One also wonders what the legal basis is for interrogating former government officials. I understand that normal prisoners of war are only required to give name and number - one also wonders if even this was respected by US and UK forces. Considering the fact that there seems to be no internationally accepted government currently operating in Iraq -I suppose one must even ask if "former" Iraqi officials such as Aziz - really are "former" in any legal sense. When can we expect these legal problems to be resolved? How long must we wait for weapons of mass destruction to be found, before the legality of the invasion can be settled? If before the war the British government claimed it "had firm proof" of WMDs -while after the war it apparently has no ssuch proof -then isn't it logical to conclude that the UK government has mislead parliament and the British people? Isn't one then forced to conclude that the invasion is therefore already proven to be not legal -and all actions taken by the "coalition" in Iraq have no legal foundation? How long can an illegally occupying force involve itself in the reconstruction of Iraq? What is the legal status of the commercial contracts made between the US government and US companies for the commercial rebuilding of Iraq? |
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